Response to FightingVatican (part 4) - The Gates of Hell shall not prevail...
"The gates of hades shall not prevail".... What does that mean then? If the Church is a community of believers, then the gates of hell shall not prevail against what? The people? Even [now] we see people believe and then fall away?... But for the gates not to prevail against the "foundation of truth", must mean that this foundation, the pillar, which is a starting point, can not be faltered. The Pillar will not fall. The people in the church can, but not the Church itself.
Let me start off by saying that I am very thankful for your interaction and I want you to know that I am not ignoring your other responses, I just want to take the time to answer all of these other concerns first. Hopefully, I will get to the other responses, especially the covenants, very soon. For now, allow me to continue responding to your original letter.
“The gates of Hades shall not prevail…” In Matthew 16:18 Jesus says to Peter, “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Again, as I have stated before, the Church is a body of believers in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, the Son of God. The Church is not an institution. I would certainly challenge anybody to find in Scripture where the Church is defined as or even described as an institution that can exist apart from believers. Instead, as I pointed out, the Church is the sum total of the elect of God. The Church are those people for whom Christ died (see Eph. 5:25). Paul says to the Church in Corinth “Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it” (I Cor. 12:27). The Church is the ONE BODY of ALL BELIEVERS. It is not a building located in one place. It is not even many buildings! It is the people! I Corinthians 3:16 even reminds us that we are “God’s temple”. Likewise Peter says, “As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ” (I Peter 2:4-5). We are the stones that make up the Church – the spiritual house – that will be the dwelling of God with His people. When Christ says “I will build my Church…” We are the material God is using. It is people.
Now, when Christ says “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it,” by this I understand Jesus promising PERPETUAL EXISTENCE to the Church. That is, God’s elect will have a continual existence. To the saints(those who died in faith, not in the Catholic sense of Saint), they are given experiencing life eternal. To the faithful here on earth, they too experience eternal life (John 17:3) but also they enjoy existence. In that I mean, God’s Church – no matter how assaulted by the world, sin and Satan – it will not ever be destroyed. Yes, there may be times when it seems like the Church is not doing its job, but just like God revealed to Elijah, He has His elect who have not succumbed to the world (see I Kings 19:9-18;Romans 11:3-5).
And so it has been. Reading early Church history and seeing the intensive persecutions against Christianity both physically and intellectually, it is a true marvel and miracle that Christianity even exists today! When we think of the early Jewish persecutions headed by, at that time, Saul of Tarsus. Think of the Roman persecutions. Think of the persecutions by the Arians. Think of the Arian ascendancy even to the Papacy in the 4th century from which our great hero of Trinitarian orthodoxy, Athanasius, had a phrase coined for him: Athanasius contra mundum, Athanasius against the world. Think about the invading Germanic tribes who eventually sacked Rome and their Arian tendencies. Then came the Muslims and their attacks on Christianity. We can also think of the Gnostics who intellectually tried to turn Christianity into something entirely different and deny the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Think of the many early and even later Christological heresies. There is so much to name. That the Church still exists today with all its true apostolic teachings is really miracles of God that I attribute to God keeping His promise to not let the “gates of hell prevail” against the Church.
But what of those who have fallen out of the fellowship of the Church? Again, I appeal to the Scriptures here particularly the apostle John. In his first epistle he writes, “Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us” (I John 2:18-19). Basically John is saying, that those who ended up leaving (apostasizing) from the faith, they left because they were not truly “of us”. That is, they were not truly born again (see I John 2:15-16; 3:6-8, et. al.) and hence “fell away.” They were “false believers” if you will. Jesus also mentions those kinds of believers. He mentions that in the Church , there will be the “wheat”(believers) mixed with the “tares” or “weeds” (unbelievers,false believers) until the end (Matt. 13:24-30).
Hence, the Church, since it is only and every comprised of believers can never cease to exist so long as God continues to keep His promises. Being that God is a faithful God, He most certainly has and will continue to keep His promise. It is true also, though, that believers may falter, even as David, a man after God’s own heart did, but they will never fully and finally fall away. For the Scriptures also promise that “He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus” (Phil. 1:6). So, while individual members of the Church may falter at times – and we can all say that are not always the best examples of Christianity sometimes for we all sin (I John 1:8) – yet as a WHOLE – and that really is the key – the gates of hell shall not prevail.
I hope that answers your question about what I believe. In the end, the Church is an organic whole composed of many individual believers each having their part as “living stones” in the building of God. Hence, the Church not cease to exist or crumble because of the lapse of one believer, or a group of believers, or with a particular expression of Christianity. I mean lets face it, each particular Christian denomination probably has some history that it might not be proud of. In common, we can say that Church history includes the Crusades as a means of spreading the Gospel. The Church killed Copernicus for his “revolutionary” theory of heliocentricity which we have come to know is true now. That is a blunder that all Christians should not be proud of. It is also true that the Church used to burn heretics, something that we today would be ashamed of. Catholics persecuted Protestants. One can hardly forget the St. Bartholomew’s day Massacre in which Protestants were viciously murdered in a plot by the Roman Catholic clergy and government. Protestants persecuted Catholics taking land from them, etc… during the Reformation. Catholic and Protestants alike participated in slavery and slave trading. The Papacy refused to condemn Hitler’s actions against the Jews. Roman Catholic priest have been found to sexually molest children. So called “Protestant” Televangelist are a continual embarrassment not only in the Church but to the world. I could certainly go on about both of respective groups’ blunders in history. But the existence of the Church is not conditioned upon the performance of its individual or even group members but upon the promise of God and of Christ : “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
Let me start off by saying that I am very thankful for your interaction and I want you to know that I am not ignoring your other responses, I just want to take the time to answer all of these other concerns first. Hopefully, I will get to the other responses, especially the covenants, very soon. For now, allow me to continue responding to your original letter.
“The gates of Hades shall not prevail…” In Matthew 16:18 Jesus says to Peter, “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Again, as I have stated before, the Church is a body of believers in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, the Son of God. The Church is not an institution. I would certainly challenge anybody to find in Scripture where the Church is defined as or even described as an institution that can exist apart from believers. Instead, as I pointed out, the Church is the sum total of the elect of God. The Church are those people for whom Christ died (see Eph. 5:25). Paul says to the Church in Corinth “Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it” (I Cor. 12:27). The Church is the ONE BODY of ALL BELIEVERS. It is not a building located in one place. It is not even many buildings! It is the people! I Corinthians 3:16 even reminds us that we are “God’s temple”. Likewise Peter says, “As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ” (I Peter 2:4-5). We are the stones that make up the Church – the spiritual house – that will be the dwelling of God with His people. When Christ says “I will build my Church…” We are the material God is using. It is people.
Now, when Christ says “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it,” by this I understand Jesus promising PERPETUAL EXISTENCE to the Church. That is, God’s elect will have a continual existence. To the saints(those who died in faith, not in the Catholic sense of Saint), they are given experiencing life eternal. To the faithful here on earth, they too experience eternal life (John 17:3) but also they enjoy existence. In that I mean, God’s Church – no matter how assaulted by the world, sin and Satan – it will not ever be destroyed. Yes, there may be times when it seems like the Church is not doing its job, but just like God revealed to Elijah, He has His elect who have not succumbed to the world (see I Kings 19:9-18;Romans 11:3-5).
And so it has been. Reading early Church history and seeing the intensive persecutions against Christianity both physically and intellectually, it is a true marvel and miracle that Christianity even exists today! When we think of the early Jewish persecutions headed by, at that time, Saul of Tarsus. Think of the Roman persecutions. Think of the persecutions by the Arians. Think of the Arian ascendancy even to the Papacy in the 4th century from which our great hero of Trinitarian orthodoxy, Athanasius, had a phrase coined for him: Athanasius contra mundum, Athanasius against the world. Think about the invading Germanic tribes who eventually sacked Rome and their Arian tendencies. Then came the Muslims and their attacks on Christianity. We can also think of the Gnostics who intellectually tried to turn Christianity into something entirely different and deny the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Think of the many early and even later Christological heresies. There is so much to name. That the Church still exists today with all its true apostolic teachings is really miracles of God that I attribute to God keeping His promise to not let the “gates of hell prevail” against the Church.
But what of those who have fallen out of the fellowship of the Church? Again, I appeal to the Scriptures here particularly the apostle John. In his first epistle he writes, “Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us” (I John 2:18-19). Basically John is saying, that those who ended up leaving (apostasizing) from the faith, they left because they were not truly “of us”. That is, they were not truly born again (see I John 2:15-16; 3:6-8, et. al.) and hence “fell away.” They were “false believers” if you will. Jesus also mentions those kinds of believers. He mentions that in the Church , there will be the “wheat”(believers) mixed with the “tares” or “weeds” (unbelievers,false believers) until the end (Matt. 13:24-30).
Hence, the Church, since it is only and every comprised of believers can never cease to exist so long as God continues to keep His promises. Being that God is a faithful God, He most certainly has and will continue to keep His promise. It is true also, though, that believers may falter, even as David, a man after God’s own heart did, but they will never fully and finally fall away. For the Scriptures also promise that “He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus” (Phil. 1:6). So, while individual members of the Church may falter at times – and we can all say that are not always the best examples of Christianity sometimes for we all sin (I John 1:8) – yet as a WHOLE – and that really is the key – the gates of hell shall not prevail.
I hope that answers your question about what I believe. In the end, the Church is an organic whole composed of many individual believers each having their part as “living stones” in the building of God. Hence, the Church not cease to exist or crumble because of the lapse of one believer, or a group of believers, or with a particular expression of Christianity. I mean lets face it, each particular Christian denomination probably has some history that it might not be proud of. In common, we can say that Church history includes the Crusades as a means of spreading the Gospel. The Church killed Copernicus for his “revolutionary” theory of heliocentricity which we have come to know is true now. That is a blunder that all Christians should not be proud of. It is also true that the Church used to burn heretics, something that we today would be ashamed of. Catholics persecuted Protestants. One can hardly forget the St. Bartholomew’s day Massacre in which Protestants were viciously murdered in a plot by the Roman Catholic clergy and government. Protestants persecuted Catholics taking land from them, etc… during the Reformation. Catholic and Protestants alike participated in slavery and slave trading. The Papacy refused to condemn Hitler’s actions against the Jews. Roman Catholic priest have been found to sexually molest children. So called “Protestant” Televangelist are a continual embarrassment not only in the Church but to the world. I could certainly go on about both of respective groups’ blunders in history. But the existence of the Church is not conditioned upon the performance of its individual or even group members but upon the promise of God and of Christ : “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
posted by prchdaword at 1:52 PM
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